NilavroNill
Talking With Poet
Bob Mackenzie
NILAVRONILL: Why do literature and poetry in particular
interest you so much? Please give us some idea about your own perception of
literature or poetry in general.
BOB MACKENZIE: For me, poetry and prose fiction are simply
media within which one might tell a story.
More broadly, this applies to all literary forms and to The Arts in
general. Whether I may write prose or
poetry, make photographs or other visual art, or create live or recorded
performance works, what’s always important is the story being told. Every work of art has a story to tell. My particular interest in literature and
especially poetry comes from the fact that the written or spoken word is
perhaps the most effective tool we can use to tell a story.
NILAVRONILL: How do you relate your own self existence
with your literary life in one hand, and the time around you, in the other.
BOB MACKENZIE: I am one
with the world in which I live. There’s
no escaping that. There’s a natural flow
through time as the world evolves and changes.
This is not to say that events, even major events, will necessarily
affect the stories I tell or the points they may make. It’s true that events may sometimes draw me
in and what I experience will influence directions I would like my story to
take. Sometimes as well, the story will
take on a life of its own and go to places I had never intended. This is one of the exciting aspects of
communicating through such a fluid medium as language. The storytelling can become a dialogue
between a writer and events as they happen.
The wonder of that interaction is then passed along to the reader or
listener.
NILAVRONILL: Do you believe creative souls flourish
more in turmoil than in peace?
BOB MACKENZIE: In this
class of “creative souls” I include all of humanity, though each individual may
be creative in his or her own way. Among
this mass of human creatives, artists stand out because above all they are the
tellers of our stories. They watch and
listen, feel and respond, then tell the tale to those who will listen. It’s
only natural that these “empaths” if you will may be more affected by turmoil
than the average person. However, they
may equally be as affected by the peaceful ripple of a stream flowing through
the woods, or birdsong on a spring morning.
They will surely be affected by the calm that comes with love of family,
of another person, or even of a favourite pet.
At times the peace of being alone with oneself, of contemplation may
bring a sense of the divine. In all of
these environments, a creative soul may flourish and even excel. I believe it’s possible for such a person to
flourish equally in peace or turmoil, whenever the world and the person make a
connection.
NILAVRONILL: Do you think in this age of information and
technology the dimensions of literature have
been largely extended beyond our preconceived ideas about literature in
general?
BOB MACKENZIE: What we call literature is a codified representation of the spoken art of story which had existed for eons before there was written or printed word. Those are both relatively recent developments that have in some ways boxed in and restricted the full potential of story. The digital information technology of our era has released story from the bonds with which the literary establishment has tied and controlled it. As soon as humans created languages, information was spread by mouth from person to person, tribe to tribe. Travelling poets and troubadours went from community to community telling the news of the day. For longer than memory, this was the only way humans shared information. In those days of spoken-word communication, legends were created, stories of gods and heroes made and told, and even extended communities were built, all by word-of mouth. The creation of writing placed some limits on the formulation of stories, but written word and word-of-mouth appear to have lived side by side for many generations. The innovation represented by the printing press changed all that and the concept that story was to be encoded as literature, the written word, locked the doors. The new technology of our century, and social media in particular, have burst the doors open, and the tyranny of academic literature no longer holds sway over the power of story. Social media, personal communication by email and other online means, digital creation and telling of story in both page and spoken form, live-stream spoken word, and other advances have expanded the sharing of story as art and communication to the universality it had in the beginning, but with an infinitely broader reach.
NILAVRONILL: Now, in this changing scenario we would
like to know from your own life experiences as a poet, writer and a creative
soul: How do you respond to this present time?
BOB MACKENZIE: I’m not sure how to answer this. Many seem to feel this is a new and different
era with its own challenges, advances, and dangers. There’s a sense that many things have changed
and we live in an entirely different world.
From what I’ve observed this is not a true picture of the time in which
we live. This view presents a fantasy in
which one may feel a sense of newborn stability and so safety whatever may
happen, good or bad. But that’s all it
is, a fantasy which separates us from memory of the past and to some degree
from the future that is sure to come. At
times, I wonder if I may have become numb, inured to the joys and tragedy of
this new world. I feel no different in
this time than I have in any other. Then
I realize that’s the point. This present
time is no different than any other.
There are wars ongoing. There is
prejudice and hatred. Evil and often
terrifying things happen. Now as then,
we must live through and cope with these things. But there is also love, and periods of peace
filled with optimism and the will to change.
As the American poet Max Ehrmann wrote a century ago, “no doubt the
universe is unfolding as it should.”
Rather than be numb to it, I simply accept this present time for what it
is, in all of its sometimes fearsome and sometimes glorious variety.
NILAVRONILL: Do you believe that all writers are by and
large the product of their nationality? And is this an incentive for or an
obstacle against becoming a truly international writer?
BOB MACKENZIE: Long ago
I learned that nations are defined simply by lines drawn on a map. If nations are such an artificial construct
then so is nationality, mutable over time and by the whims of politicians and
despots. In my life alone, the maps of
Europe, Africa, Asia, and the rest of the world have been redrawn many
times. Some nations have changed their
shape and name so often it’s near impossible to remember all the variations.
While it may be true that a minority of writers are
products of their nationality, whatever that may be at the time, the work of
most draws on something deeper and perhaps even genetically ingrained. That is the culture into which they are born
and raised. The primary inclination of
humanity is tribal. If one looks, for
example, at the continent of Europe over its long history as far back as humans
have lived there, it will be seen to be nothing more or less than an
aggregation of tribes. In the context of
that long history, the concept of nationhood is very new. A closer look reveals that any nation is a
collaboration of tribes, often aggregated against their collective will. And over time, nations will expand or shrink,
vanish and appear with lines on the map redrawn by war or intrigue and political
bargaining. Through all of this, the
tribes and their cultures remain and shall remain. It’s of these many and varied cultures that
writers and all artists are the products.
While it’s true that such a fragmented world may be an
obstacle for some writers, or at least constrain them to their own ethnic
culture, writers are a curious sort. Seeing
all there is in the world that they haven’t yet discovered, many and perhaps
most writers may see this variety as a challenge to expand their horizons. This presents an incentive to discover new
worlds from which to draw inspiration.
NILAVRONILL: Now, if we try to understand the tradition
and modernism, do you think literature can play a pivotal role in it? If so, how? Again, how can an individual
writer relate himself or herself to the tradition and to modernism?
BOB MACKENZIE: It’s unclear whether this question refers to modernism
itself as a tradition or asks for a comparison between modernism as a literary
philosophy and the philosophy or tradition that had existed before the
modernist movement. While these two
interpretations may seem quite dissimilar, I believe they are more closely
related than we may imagine. So the main
question is what role does literature play in the modernism of our times. The
modernism that arose throughout western civilization in the late 19th Century
had been a reaction to the strictures of tradition, especially during the
Victorian era. It especially blossomed
and grew following the First World War.
By mid-century, though, modernism had begun to become a tradition of its
own as stultifying as the one it had replaced.
This history holds true throughout all disciplines of the arts, but
especially literature.
In this new era, too many writers cling to a “modernism”
which is no longer truly modern or innovative. For example, many and perhaps
most of the poets who had become prominent in the sixties of the 20th
Century and their adherents hew to the tenets of this new tradition and have
modelled their art on the American artists of that era. Over the past few decades, I’ve been pleased
to see the rise of new, younger writers, especially poets, who are exploring
new ground beyond modernism or the traditions that had come before yet
incorporating in new ways much of what had gone before. This direction can both relate to and move
into the future.
NILAVRONILL: Do you think literary criticism has much to
do with the development of a poet and the true understanding of his or her poetry?
BOB MACKENZIE: I believe that the best literary criticism can have a great deal of influence on how the beginning poet and even the more experienced may develop and grow. This is literary criticism which delves deep into a writer’s work, thoughtfully analyzes the art and craft that has gone into the poetry, and clearly advises the poet on what has been discovered in this process. This is a partnership though, in which the poet must also fully participate. The poet must take seriously what he or she has been told and carefully consider what to take from it and apply. The advice given, no matter how erudite, is in the end only one person’s opinion. The poet should utilize what is most helpful, take some suggestions under advisement for later consideration, and shelve the rest in some back closet of the mind as not applicable.
NILAVRONILL: Do you think society as a whole is the key
factor in shaping you up as a poet, or your poetry altogether?
BOB MACKENZIE: I don’t believe “society as a whole” can be
much of a factor in shaping a poet or the poet’s poetry. Such a concept is too large and
flexible. More important influences are
the smaller elements: the family, the community, faith or religion, the immediate
culture in which the poet lives. Each of
these or the lack of any of them can have an enormous influence on the poet as
a person and as an artist. Even the
smallest thing may sometimes mark the poet for life. Early influences from family, friends, and
the immediate community and culture are the key factors to shape a person’s
outlook and so the shape of the poet to be.
I know this to have been true in my life and my development as an
artist. Without the family and culture
in which I had the privilege to develop as a person, I wouldn’t be the poet and
artist I’ve become.
NILAVRONILL: Do you think people in general actually
bother about literature? Do you think
this consumerist world is turning the average man away from serious literature?
BOB MACKENZIE: I don’t believe the general mass of people
have ever been concerned with literature or any fine art as curated and defined
by academics and other such establishments.
It’s doubtful consumerism or the environment it creates have any impact
on this relationship between common people and the high arts. This level of the arts is formalized by the
elites as one wall against the barbarians without. However, art in its various forms has always
been with us and always shall be. The
making of art as communication is foundational to the human condition. Art exists at the street level
that, while perhaps dismissed by elite arbiters, touches the hearts of those
who live in towns, cities, and the countryside.
This people’s art drives progress and revolution, makes history where
high art never can. This is the art of
the Bohemians, Beats, Hippies and of the workers often far removed from formal
academics. If the average man may appear
to have turned away from “serious” literature, it’s because he has never turned
to it for succor or simple enjoyment in the first place.
NILAVRONILL: We would like to know the factors and the
peoples who have influenced you immensely in the growing phase of your literary
life.
BOB MACKENZIE: This
story begins long before I officially began my writing career. It was my parents who first showed me the many
forms that story can take, including the written word. When I was unable to start school because I’d
been born in January of the next year, my parents enrolled me in daycare. This daycare in our small prairie town was unusual,
teaching children the arts. At five
years old, I became a painter and sculptor as well as a teller of tales. Even before that, my parents gave me a
Brownie camera, which my photographer father and painter mother taught me to
use. When I was eight years old, my
parents helped me make a 16 mm movie short which I produced, wrote,
directed, and starred in. My mother and
father were well-educated for the time and literate. Our home was filled with
talk of politics, world faiths, art and literature. My father loved poetry, both literary works
and the humour of writers like the American poet Ogden Nash. My mother was a fan of popular music, sharing
with my sister and me the salient points of excellent song lyrics. And our lives growing up were filled with the
strains of music in every genre and from every era, modern and going back for
centuries. This environment, which also
included aunts and uncles and grandparents, put me on the road to my later
career as an artist and remains perhaps my greatest influence.
At 18 years old, I decided that writing was my calling
and true profession. But I was still
growing. I learned a lot from
professionals I worked with in print and broadcast media and from working
artists who were willing to talk with a beginner. Right at the start, I was fortunate to be
admitted to a writing workshop with successful writers many years older than
myself who were a great influence on my approach to writing. In my varied lifetime, I have met and
learned, formally and informally, from many excellent artists in all
disciplines. Each of these contacts has
certainly been a strong influence on me and my career. Even now, I am still learning and growing.
NILAVRONILL: How would you evaluate your contemporaries
and what are your aspirations for or expectation from the younger generation?
BOB MACKENZIE: I’m not certain who I can call my
contemporaries, so have no basis for evaluation. Here in Canada, the poets of my generation
have mostly drawn from different sources for their work than I have for
mine. Many, perhaps most, look back
a short time for their forms and inspiration.
They are students of the Black Mountain movement and poets of other
similar philosophies in American poetry.
In my opinion, these poets are trying to replicate in Canada a movement
already past its time in the nation of its birth. Many of these same poets and
others appear to look back at the modernists for inspiration and write a poetry
that is even further past its time.
Writing that draws upon either of these philosophies can in some cases
appear derivative or even cliché. In
this environment, I have been mostly the outlier. While I’m sure there are many poets in Canada
who may also be outliers for various reasons, we share no common point of meeting. However, we are all growing old and it’s to
the young we must look. I see many
wonderful young poets in Canada, ranging from absolute beginners to those
already established or gaining a foothold.
More than a few of these poets are also becoming editors at established
journals and small presses or establishing presses of their own. The decisions these new editors make will
make all the difference. I’m not sure my
aspirations for this new generation of poets in Canada matter, but my
expectation is that they will excel and will revitalize our poetry. As for the new generation of poets in the
rest of the world, I don’t feel I know their work well enough to comment.
NILAVRONILL: Humanity has suffered immensely in the
past, and is still suffering around the world. We all know it well. But are you
hopeful about our future?
BOB MACKENZIE: There has always been suffering in the world, and always great joy. This has only ever changed in degree as balance has been achieved then lost once more. Yes, I am very hopeful for the future which is always ahead of us. Humanity is incredibly resilient, whatever may come.
NILAVRONILL: What role can literature in general play
to bring a better day for every human being?
BOB MACKENZIE: The word, both written and spoken, can play a very positive role in the life of every single human being, or it can be very damaging. This awesome power for good or evil lies in the hands of every person who writes or speaks any language. Handle with care is the byword. Early in their evolution, humans discovered that they could communicate with the sounds they make. These inflected grunts and growls synthesized into words, and words inspired sharing and a higher order of thought. Once even the simplest forms of writing were created, communication through words became widespread not only over distance but through time. With the new technology now available to us, communication is enhanced beyond our wildest dreams, through words both spoken and on screens in print. It’s through these media that the language of the street, the language of the people can and does gain an increasingly important role in everyday lives. Each of us must handle the use of words with care and integrity and be always aware of the ways others may be using them.
BOB MACKENZIE: Raised
in mid-century rural Alberta with artist parents, professional photographer and
musician father and visual artist mother, Canadian poet Bob MacKenzie now lives
and writes in Kingston, Ontario. His
poetry has appeared in nearly 500 journals internationally and his work's
appeared in numerous anthologies. Bob
has published nineteen volumes of poetry and prose-fiction and has received
numerous local and international awards for his writing, including an Ontario
Arts Council grant for literature, a Canada Council Grant for performance, and
a Fellowship to attend the Summer Literary Seminars in Tbilisi, Georgia. The ensemble Poem de Terre has released six
albums of Bob's poetry spoken and sung with original music.
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